Vince Foster's Murder... authored 1998

A&E says there are countless conspiracy theories
about Vince Foster.  In fact, there are two, the
truth and the cover-up.

The truth is Vince Foster was involved in an 
investigation that led to evidence of criminal
conspiracy in the Los Angeles Police Department.
The federal officer investigating was set-up, 
framed and imprisoned.  Vince Foster had sworn 
that the investigating officer would be pardoned 
and the true criminals would be exposed.  The two 
met the day before Vince Foster died.  Vince 
confided that day he had received a death threat.  
The next day Vince Foster died. 

To the best of my knowledge, the investigator
involved has been set-up and busted, much in the
style of the Shadow Government we have seen
numerous times, most overtly in any study 
involving the Kennedy assassinations.

Asides from this investigator, Fred Celeni,
years ago Louis Tackwood, in 1972, reported
identical type activities, especially blowing the
whistle on the LAPD involvement in murders and
subsequent frame-ups of Black Panthers under 
the auspices of COINTELPRO.  The LAPD 
Secret Police was dissolved at that time, only to
be reformed under a different name using the same

In addition, Mike Rothmiller in his book "L.A. 
Secret Police: Inside the LAPD elite spy network"
(ISBN: 0-671-79657-7) details similar and related
criminal activities to those presented here.
Another witness from within the LAPD, 
corroborating all these witnesses who also 
worked within the LAPD is Mike Levine who
has stated that the drug was is a sham and 
further corroborates these tactics, and the 
protection by the DEA of those high up in 
drug trafficking.  He has written two books on
this subject, "Deep Cover" and "The Big White

Of course, these type of machinations have 
many purposes.  Among them was the desire to
send a threat to president Clinton of what could
happen to more of his friends if he did not just
do as he is told.  Vince Foster was following up
allegations of criminal activities within the 
government.  The focus of his investigation was
a topic to be used by the intelligence agencies 
to divert the American Public from the 
conspiratorial crimes of the Shadow Government 
including drug trafficking, collusion with organized 
crime, abducting of U.S. citizens to conduct 
experiments on, complicity in many assassinations 
including that of JFK, BCCI, Iran Contra, Iraq-gate, 
October Surprise and all the X-Files type of stuff.
Instead, using the media, the focus would be changed
to gossip about OJ and soap opera trivia and racial 
division.  Sure enough, it seems after a year of 
night and day framing OJ on nationwide TV the goal 
was achieved and the news media and public dropped
the ball on the real issues.

The criminals who faked this suicidefeared an
investigation.  So, to thwart any investigation, they
started their own cry for an investigation and 
claimed Clinton was responsible for the murder.
If they got an investigation, they could use it to 
find anything about Clinton's private life that could
be used in the media against him, and they could 
be sure no true investigation, only their own, would 
ever ensue.  If the investigation were quashed, they
would have committed another perfect crime, and 
could claim Clinton blocked the investigation and 
further their assertions that he was the perpetrator 
of the crime.

So they murdered Vince Foster, and A&E has helped
them cover-up the crime.  Following is the testimony
which includes the witnessing of the death threat 
against Vince Foster the day before he died, and much

              Conspiracy Nation -- Vol. 11  Num. 98
                     ("Quid coniuratio est?")


[Editor's note:  Fred Celeni  (pronounced suh-LAN-ee) worked as a
federal intelligence agent, he  says,  for  the  office  of  U.S.
Congressman  John  D. Dingell.  Celeni was interviewed for public
access television in Los  Angeles,  and  that interview was later
re-broadcast   on   Sherman   Skolnick's   television    program,
"Broadsides,"  in  Chicago.   Following  is  my  own  abbreviated
transcript  of Celeni's remarks.  (Possible spelling errors exist
and are not noted.)]

FRED CELENI:  ...and they  asked  for  identification, and I gave
them a copy of John Dingell's letter introducing me as  a  member
of  this  investigative  setup,  of  the  Oversight Investigation
   At that point,  they  made  a  telephone  call, and two people
entered the room.  One of them was known to me:  Vincent  Foster.
Vincent,  in previous operations in Springfield, Illinois, had at
that time become known as "The Rabbi."  There was a man with him;
he identified himself as  Walter  Husting.   They told me that he
was a newspaper publisher.  And the specifics stand out  for  two
reasons.   I  said, one, "Why would a newspaper publisher be in a
room where we're planning  a  covert intelligence activity?"  And
the second thing that bothered me was that I knew I had seen this
guy someplace before.
   We conversed for about an hour  and  some  minutes.   At  that
point  I  was  asked  to  give Ms. [Betsy] Wright a ride home.  I
dropped her off.  I'm not sure if  that was her house or not, but
it was what we refer to as a "Cape Cod."  It wasn't  very  large.
It  wasn't what I expected her to live in, based on her being the
head of Clinton's campaign.
   During  that  meeting,  what  came  up  was  a  plan  that the
Oversight Investigation Subcommittee had put  together  in  1980.
And  during  that  meeting we discussed that plan.  And what that
plan  basically  purported  to   be   was   a  system  to  handle
insurrection.  Now if you read the title and the first few pages,
you had this feeling it was a report on how to stop  insurrection
in  a major American city.  But as you got further into the plan,
it said, "Now that we have discussed how to cease and desist this
problem, =these= are the factors that  could lead to this type of
a riot."  What it really was, was 30 pages of blueprint on how to
start a riot:  How you would be able to  go  in  and  rile  up  a
community;  how  you would be able to approach the youth; how you
would infiltrate schools.
   Now what they wanted  to  do  was  bring forward the idea that
"America has to depend on the government."  That they could paint
the Los Angeles police or  the  Chicago  police  as  racists  and
bigots,  then  everyone  would  look to the federal government to
come in and be their savior.

INTERVIEWER:  When did you learn the true identity of this Walter

FRED CELENI:  About a month-and-a-half later, I happened to see a
program on television.  And  they  identified  the man as being a
key aide on the Clinton staff.  And I  wasn't  positive  until  I
actually saw him, the night before the election, on television in
Little Rock. That's when I realized it was the same individual.

INTERVIEWER: And who is that?

FRED CELENI: His name's James Carville.

INTERVIEWER: Betsy Wright did not use an alias.

FRED CELENI: No, she did not.

                    -+- The Al Gore Plan -+-

INTERVIEWER:   Now  let's  fast-forward  ahead, to April of 1992.
You're back in Los Angeles and operating this phony law firm, and
"Operation Lasso" was in full-swing.   You then had the situation
with Rodney King:  the trial of  the  officers  involved  in  his
beating.   You  then already had orders to put this inciting into

FRED CELENI:  No. It depended  on  what happened.  If the verdict
had been "guilty," the set of orders on how we  were  to  proceed
would  have been totally different.  If it had been "guilty," the
orders were, to go  out  into  the  white community and, with our
television show and our radio  show  --  we  had  a  show  called
"Investigative  Reporter"  --  we  were to get negative comments;
anti-black comments.  If  they  [the  police officers] were =not=
convicted, then we were to do the opposite.  That  opposite  plan
was,   to   use   a   modified  version  of  the  1980  Oversight
Investigation plan.

INTERVIEWER: Written by Al Gore.

FRED CELENI:  Authored by Al Gore  and a couple other people.  Al
Gore's name was at the top of it.
   And what that plan was, was to go into the black community and
incite that community.

                     -+- The Rolling 90s -+-

   So as the trial started to wind down to the end (about 10 days
before the verdict), it was obvious  there was going to be a "not
guilty" verdict.
   So what we did was, we started going into the black  community
and  started  contacting  the  black youth.  We concentrated on 3
areas:  what we called the  Somoan  Crip area (the poorer section
of Long Beach); the Rolling 30s, Rolling 60s, Rolling  90s  Crips
(which is another black gang); and last, on something called "The
8-Tray  Gangster  Crips."   And  we  ended  up  getting  the best
response out  of  the  8-Tray  Gangster  Crips,  of  which Damian
Williams and [unclear] Park were the  leaders.   Damian  Williams
was called "Football."
   What  we  started doing was, going in there distributing cash,
crack cocaine, and weapons -- handguns.
   When the verdict came down, we  had nailed it down to 2 areas.
We cut out the Long Beach  Somoans;  the  Somoan  Crips  were  so
violent  that we feared they would explode and it would turn into
something that we didn't want  it  to  turn into.  The object was
not to burn down Los Angeles; the object was to  create  a  small
riot in a confined area... a small insurrection.
   The  Rolling  60s  controls  60th street -- all those streets:
sixtieth,  sixty-first,  sixty-second,   etc.   The  Rolling  90s
control 90th street and  all  those.   The  Rolling  30s  control
thirtieth  street,  thirty-first,  etc.   And  then,  up  in  the
high-90s, is where the 8-Tray Gangsters meet.
   The day the riot actually started, what happened was, early in
the  morning,  when they announced a verdict had been reached, we
went to the Los  Angeles  Police  Department  and  we picked up a
4-door Chevrolet black-and-white unit.  It had all the  computers
and radios inside, but we were told not to use those; to stay off
the  communication  channels and to use a portable telephone.  We
proceeded from there --  myself,  and three black gentlemen:  one
was named Anthony; one was named Charles; one was named Shabazz.

INTERVIEWER:  Who was your contact at Van Nuys  [LAPD  precinct],
to get the police car?

FRED CELENI: His name was Nathan Arnold, Jr.

INTERVIEWER: You worked closely with Nathan Arnold for some time.

FRED CELENI: Yes. I worked with Nathan for approximately a year.

INTERVIEWER: He was very aware of the whole operation.

FRED   CELENI:   In  fact  so.   Nathan  is  part  of  the  elite
intelligence squad [of LAPD.  See  the book, *L.A. Secret Police*
by Mike Rothmiller -- ISBN:  0-671-79657-7 -- for further  info.]
He's  ostensibly  assigned  as a senior detective to the Van Nuys
narcotics squad.  But, underneath it  all, you have to understand
that,  in  the  early  to  late  1980s  the  Los  Angeles  Police
Department operated their own CIA.  It was called the Los Angeles
Police Department Intelligence Unit.  They had  to  disband  that
because  of  problems.   So they surfaced this thing as what they
called a "Metropolitan Task Force."

INTERVIEWER:  What  was  Nathan  Arnold,  Jr.'s, affiliation with
Mark Fuhrman?

FRED CELENI:  There were two other men in the  "Lasso"  operation
who  were  assigned  by  the  LAPD.   A man by the name of Robert
Vernon was the second-in-command,  Los Angeles Police Department.
He's a Deputy Chief.  Also brought in were  Tom  Lange  and  Mark
Fuhrman.  And those three people came from three different units.
But  they totally controlled "Lasso" and the area we were working

INTERVIEWER:  And they  also  worked  together  on drug and sting

FRED CELENI:  Correct.  Intelligence  operations.   You  have  to
understand  that  some  of  them  are from homicide -- the reason
being, drugs cross two  areas:   they  either result in death, or
dealing in drugs. And those two areas combine.
   Robert Vernon told me...  (We had dinner one day at  Hamburger
Hamlet  in  Van Nuys.)  Vernon said to me, "I'm putting Tom Lange
into this mix, because Mark  Fuhrman  and Nathan Arnold are loose
cannons.  They're very difficult to control.  But Tom's  a  real,
sincere, nice guy. He can control these people."

INTERVIEWER:   Back  to  the "Lasso" operation, on the day of the
riot, April 1992.  You've just  picked  up  the police car in Van
Nuys, and you have three young black... hoodlums, shall  we  call

FRED  CELENI:   No, these weren't hoodlums.  These three men were
from the El Toro Marine Base, in southern California.

INTERVIEWER:  I see.  So they were assigned to "Operation Lasso."
And their names again?

FRED CELENI:  One was named Anthony.  One was named Charles.  One
was named Shabazz.

INTERVIEWER:  Now you are  driving  them  in  an  LAPD car on the
afternoon of the verdict. And where do you go?

FRED CELENI:  First we went to [unclear]; we were about  a  block
away,  because  we  were waiting for Nathan Arnold to catch up to

INTERVIEWER: What was in the trunk of your car?

FRED CELENI:   We  had  two  automatic  weapons,  that are called
"Mach-10s."  We had approximately two-dozen  handguns  which  did
not contain serial numbers.

INTERVIEWER: And how much ammunition?

FRED  CELENI:  Oh, I would say probably one clip for each handgun
and one extra.


FRED CELENI:  No. We did have  a  can of diesel fuel.  But we did
not release that from the trunk.

INTERVIEWER: And crack cocaine?

FRED CELENI:  Yes, we had quite a bit of crack cocaine.   We  had
approximately one kilo.

INTERVIEWER: And where did you go?

FRED  CELENI:   The  decision  was  made  to  go  to Florence and
Normandy, not to Long Beach.   We  proceeded  to a gas station in
the area.

INTERVIEWER: You parked in the back and did what?

FRED CELENI:  We unloaded the two boxes, out of  the  trunk,  and
put  them  on  the ground.  And I drove out of the lot and parked

INTERVIEWER:  And at this time  you  realized that you were being
filmed by a private individual with a video camera.


INTERVIEWER: (We'll go into him a little later.)
   Meanwhile, Shabazz, Anthony and  Charles  took  the  boxes  of
weapons  and  crack  cocaine  to the front of the gas station and
began to dispense the  contents,  on  the  street corner.  Do you
know of any other, similar operations, going on at  that  moment,
in order to incite the riots?

FRED CELENI: I had been told there were other operations.

INTERVIEWER:   Later,  you  came back to pick up Charles, Anthony
and Shabazz. How much later?

FRED CELENI: A little over an hour later.

INTERVIEWER: Then where did you take them?

FRED CELENI:  We drove  a  short  distance  and went to where the
riot had actually started.  A woman had been attacked by  police.
Her boy and she had been pushed down.  They knocked over a fence.
And  all  of  =our=  machinations near the gas station (I came to
find out) were nowhere =near=  as  inciteful as what had happened
by that fence.


[Editor's note:  Fred Celeni  (pronounced suh-LAN-ee) worked as a
federal intelligence agent, he  says,  for  the  office  of  U.S.
Congressman  John  D. Dingell.  Celeni was interviewed for public
access television in Los  Angeles,  and  that interview was later
re-broadcast   on   Sherman   Skolnick's   television    program,
"Broadsides,"  in  Chicago.   Following  is  my  own  abbreviated
transcript  of Celeni's remarks.  (Possible spelling errors exist
and are not noted.)]


                     -+- Tow Truck Mike -+-

INTERVIEWER:  What happened  to  the  black individual, you said,
who was a local resident who happened to  be  out  there  with  a
video  camera?   He  shot  you, sitting in the LAPD car.  Can you
tell us what happened?

FRED CELENI:  A gentleman pulled  up  in  a tow truck.  I came to
find out, later on, that he was called "Tow Truck Mike."  And Tow
Truck Mike took a videotape of what was going on;  he  swung  the
camera  around  and picked me up, sitting, looking out the window
of the [squad] car. He was back, I'd say, 150 feet.
   So what I did is, I wrote down the license number and I got on
the telephone.  And a couple  of  hours later, the police invaded
Mike's home.  And they took Mike down to the  police  station  --
they  took his mother, too... his mother or his father.  And they
said to him, "If you  don't  give  us this videotape, your mother
(or father) is never leaving this police station alive."
   And so he turned over the tape.

INTERVIEWER:  The meeting at the  Hamburger  Hamlet  with  Robert
Vernon,  the  Assistant  Chief  of  Police:  Who else was at that

FRED CELENI:  There were three  meetings  that took place at that
location.  The first meeting was Robert Vernon, Ira  Reiner,  and
myself. The second meeting was...

INTERVIEWER: Ira Reiner!? The District Attorney?

FRED CELENI: Yes, sir. The District Attorney.
   Mr.  Reiner  wore  a  baseball  hat -- a red baseball hat that
said "Los Angeles" on it.   And  when we left that first meeting,
he gave me the hat as a souvenir.  And I wore it when they  taped
me  for  "Street  Stories."   "Street Stories" came in when I was
interviewing Damian Williams' mother for my radio show.  And when
they taped it  for  airing...   It  never  aired, because Dingell
ordered it pulled. But the tape still exists, I'm sure, at CBS.

INTERVIEWER:  Congressman John Dingell from Michigan  ordered  it

FRED CELENI: Yes, sir.

INTERVIEWER: How did he have this power?

FRED  CELENI:   He told me that he just called up somebody in New
York City and said  that,  "=I=  =do=  =not= =want= Celeni on the
   They were there for an hour that  day,  taping  me,  at  radio
station KIEV in Glendale.

INTERVIEWER: Congressman Dingell actually admitted this to you?

FRED  CELENI:   Yes, sir.  He said, "=I= =do= =not= =want= you on
the air.  Somebody might recognize  your  face.  And I can't have
you on the air as 'Fred Sebastian.'"

INTERVIEWER: That was your code name, "Fred Sebastian?"


INTERVIEWER: What knowledge did Ira Reiner have?

FRED CELENI:  Basically what they were doing  [at  the  Hamburger
Hamlet  meeting]  was internecine warfare.  Mr. Reiner said that,
not only  was  there  a  wealth  of  intelligence  coming  out of
[Operation Lasso], but he felt that he had no  control  over  it.
We  had  had  an  incident  a  couple  of  months before with the
Sheriff's  Department  up  in   Malibu,  which  almost  blew  the
operation wide open, and they had to come in  and  cover  it  up.
And  at  that  point,  Mr. Reiner said that he wanted more-direct
input.  So he arranged for one of his murder prosecutors from Van
Nuys to start overseeing the cases.  And he also arranged for one
of his former prosecutors to take a job directly at CCLJ.
   The Center for Constitutional Law and Justice [CCLJ] was =not=
a store-front law firm.  It had a quarter of a floor in an office
building.  It had  ten  attorneys.   They  had a complete support
staff.  They had $100,000 worth of computers and fax machines and
telephone   systems.    They   had   sophisticated   taping   and
surveillance systems.  They had a sophisticated electronic  entry
system:   when  you came in, you had to acknowledge that you were
coming into a  videotaped  and  audiotaped area.  The *California
Law Magazine* talks about it.
   All of the money came from Congress.  This is the  first  time
in  the  history  of  the country where you have Congressman John
Dingell running an  illegal  intelligence  operation, and killing
people who are United States citizens.
   The fact is, nobody has adequately  checked  this  story  out.
And  until somebody checks it out, they will continue to get away
with it.

                 -+- Praying On O.J. Simpson -+-

INTERVIEWER:  This  leads  us  to  an  interesting  coalition, of
Nathan Arnold and Mark Fuhrman, on another celebrated case.


[Editor's note:   I  received  the  following  from  a  reader of
Conspiracy  Nation;  it  gives  extra  background   on   supposed
"spontaneous" urban riots.]

Dear Sir,

I have been reading your articles for about a year and a half and
I  wish  to thank you for the work you are doing.  It takes a lot
of courage to do what you are doing, please take care.

The recent article [Secrets of the L.A. Riots] has raised certain
questions  in  my  mind.  First, have you seen the professionally
prepared documentary on  the  history  of  Watts?  I mention this
because there are references  in  there  to  a  long  history  of
government   programs   to  bring  down  any  black  power  base,
especially in bringing down  the  Panthers.   And, lo and behold,
there is  related  in  this  video  about  how  someone,  parties
unknown,  left  weapons  out for all in the Watts ghetto to take.
In the first L.A. riot  in  the  sixties  they were left in white
vans.  Just prior to the King riot they were left in boxcars  (!)
on  SP-owned sidings.  [1] The documentary has this charge (about
the boxcars of weapons) being  repeated by former U.N. Ambassador
Andrew Young.  This  would  seem  to  corroborate  what  you  are

Also,  I  have  been  told by a person whose name I can no longer
remember, and what with the only  person I know who could tell me
the name on the run from our friendly government, I can no longer
verify the following:  When the Waco siege  was  just  under  way
this  guy  got  into  the compound and interviewed several of the
Davidians (it may also be  that  he interviewed by phone, at this
point I'm not sure) and was told that one of the  Davidians  (the
Harvard-educated  Black  guy,  I  cannot  remember  his name) had
hacked into Pentagon and  L.A.P.D. computers.  The Pentagon files
revealed a list of weapons confiscated by  the  Israelis  in  the
Lebanon  incursion  (I'm not sure why they would have them except
that some of these weapons were  eventually put into the hands of
the contras, as was reported in the NY  Times  about  six  months
after  the Grenada invasion, where, I believe, these same weapons
were used to fill the  warehouses  for the photo-op session three
days later).  They were able to hack the LAPD records of  weapons
confiscated  from  crimes and came up with a number of matches to
the Pentagon records.  I can only  assume that, if this is indeed
true, that this would have been one of the reasons to so savagely
go after the Davidians.   Have  you  heard  any  thing  of  this?
Again, it lines up with the revelations in your article.

Finally,  I  have  talked  with  the  editor of a local left-wing
magazine who related  information  she  received  from a prisoner
formerly in Pelican Bay. Apparently the prisoner, with  not  much
else  to  do,  decided to do an FOIA request for any documents on
the Bloods or the Crips.  In the letter to this editor was a copy
of a document from the FBI on  an operation in the LA ghetto that
was given the acronym CRIPS, something like  "community  reources
in the private sector", that was to organize Black teenagers.  My
friend  has  been  sitting  on  this information for years and is
quite afraid of what may happen to anyone who would release this.
I can't say as I blame my  friend.   But this may be an avenue of
investigation you may want to pursue.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see where this all gets  to;  I
doubt  very far.  The people of this country are so asleep.  Keep
up the good work.

                           (Name withheld by request)

---------------------------<< Notes >>---------------------------
[1] In the 1960s, CIA ran a domestic operation called  "Operation
CHAOS,"  which  partly involved the placement of covert operators
into groups  expressing  dissent  with  U.S. government policies.
Some of these covert operators were federally  funded,  with  the
money "filtered through Chicago Mayor Richard Daley's antipoverty
organization,  and that the members included individuals from one
of Chicago's most feared street gangs -- the Blackstone Rangers."
(Source:   *Orders  To  Kill*   by   William  F.  Pepper.   ISBN:

 +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +

For related stories, visit:


[Editor's note:  Fred Celeni  (pronounced suh-LAN-ee) worked as a
federal intelligence agent, he  says,  for  the  office  of  U.S.
Congressman  John  D. Dingell.  Celeni was interviewed for public
access television in Los  Angeles,  and  that interview was later
re-broadcast   on   Sherman   Skolnick's   television    program,
"Broadsides,"  in  Chicago.   Following  is  my  own  abbreviated
transcript  of Celeni's remarks.  (Possible spelling errors exist
and are not noted.)]


                -+- Hillary and the Meth Labs -+-

INTERVIEWER:   Under  what  pretext   were  you,  shall  we  say,
"suckered," into Little Rock?

FRED CELENI:  The theory was we were going to  be  getting  money
from  the  Glasgows that was going to go to Hillary Clinton.  And
it  concerned  a   methamphetamine   operation.    And  the  same
methamphetamine operation, the same people  associated  with  it,
are  directly  related to a man by the name of David Hale, who is
now, supposedly,  the  government's  star  witness  in  this case
against McDougal and Hillary and Jim Guy Tucker.

INTERVIEWER:  So you were going to set her up on some kind  of  a
drug deal?

FRED  CELENI:  No, just the opposite.  What was happening was, we
were supposed to make her look  like, kind of like, Nancy Reagan:
"Just say 'no' to drugs."  Well, Hillary  Clinton  was  going  to
"reveal"  this information about David Hale, and help the FBI and
the Marshalls arrest David Hale  in  a sting operation.  The idea
was, was to stop David Hale.
   You've got to remember what's important here.  The day  I  got
arrested  in  Little  Rock,  an  hour later I was standing in the
United States District Judge's  court.  (If I remember correctly,
his name was Forrester.)  And I said, "Judge Forrester, I  am  an
officer  of  the federal government.  I work for John Dingell, of
the Congressional Committee on  Oversight Investigations.  I have
complete immunity."  I presented my immunity letter, the minute I
got arrested.

INTERVIEWER: How did the judge respond?

FRED CELENI:  He told me, "You're not being held for this  crime.
We're  holding  you  as  a parole violator."  That's how they got
away with it.

INTERVIEWER:  What do  you  think  the  purpose  was, for them to
arrest you?

FRED CELENI:  What had happened  was,  two  days  before,  I  had
called  up Vince Foster.  And I said, "Vince, why am I being told
to wind everything down?"  He said, "Hey, basically the operation
is finished."  He said, "We've  got  the election; the polls show
it.  We're just wrapping things up."  I said, "Well where  is  my
*quid  pro  quo*?"   He  said, "Well as soon as he's in the White
House, you're gonna get it."  I  said, "What am I gonna get?"  He
said, "You're gonna get a pardon."
   Well, Vince was correct:  As soon as Clinton got in the  White
House, I sure "got it," all right.  But it wasn't a pardon.  What
I  got  was an order, to Webster Hubbell, that said, "Fred Celeni
is to be kept  incommunicado."   When  Prime Time Live, ABC News,
came to see me, they were not allowed in to  see  me.   Based  on
Hubbell's  orders.  When Dateline NBC came, they were not allowed
to see me.  Based on Webster Hubbell's orders, as number 2 man at
the Justice Department.

INTERVIEWER: How do you know that the President ordered this?

FRED CELENI:  It came out in a hearing, shortly before the trial,
where we went in and  said,  "Your honor, they're not allowing us
to talk to the media."  And the judge said,  "It's  okay  if  Mr.
Hubbell  wants  him kept away from these channels, without direct
access, because Celeni can talk to them on the telephone.  That's
not a denial of his First Amendment rights."

INTERVIEWER:  Where were you in July  of 1993?  July the 19th, to
be precise.

FRED CELENI: I was on trial in Little Rock, Arkansas.

INTERVIEWER: And you were housed where?

FRED CELENI:  At the North Little Rock Police Jail, I guess  they
call it.

INTERVIEWER:  You got a call from Washington, DC, on the night of
July 19th. Tell us about it.

FRED  CELENI:   I  was  brought  out  of  my  jail cell, into the
Sergeant's office.  And they closed  the  doors and the man said,
"Here," handed me a telephone, pressed a button,  and  he  walked
out  of the room.  And I said, "Hello?"  And a female voice said,
"This is Fred Celeni?"  And I  said, "Yes, it is."  And she said,
"This is the signals operator.  Will you  hold  please?"   And  I
said, "Yes, I will."  And about 30 to 45 seconds went by, and Mr.
Foster came on the line.

            -+- Vince Foster Gets Made Horizontal -+-

INTERVIEWER: And what did you talk about?

FRED  CELENI:  We basically talked about the fact that I had been
writing to him and I  had  made  a  couple of phone calls.  And I
asked for documentation, and I asked if he'd be willing  to  come
and testify in my behalf.

INTERVIEWER: And what did he say?

FRED CELENI: He said he was going to send some documents.
   We got into talking about a lot of things.  And he told me, he
said,  "You  know,  I'm worried."  And I said, "Why is that?"  We
got to talking about the  lawyer  I  had (Gregory Bryant), and he
told me Gregory Bryant was called "The  Snake."   He  said,  "Did
'The  Snake' try to find out who 'The Rabbi' is?"  I said, "Yeah,
he's been trying to find out."
   [Then  we  talked  further,  and  Foster  said,]  "I  was told
yesterday that I'll be killed if any  of  this  comes  out."   He
didn't  use  the word "killed"; he said, "I was told that I'll be
made horizontal."  I said, "Who  told  you this?"  He said, "Webb
Hubbell took me out yesterday.  Webb said to  me,  'Let  me  tell
you,  Vince.   This  Celeni  situation:   if  you don't shut your
f**king mouth,'  he  said,  'Buddy  Young  will  make sure you're

INTERVIEWER: And what happened to Vince Foster the next day?

FRED CELENI:  The next day, I came into court.   I  had  no  idea
what  was going on.  And Gregory Bryant said to me, "The Rabbi is
no more."
   But what got me was, he knew it at 9:30 in the morning.

INTERVIEWER: On the 20th?

FRED CELENI: On the 20th. Vince wasn't dead yet.

INTERVIEWER:  So  at  9:30  in  the  morning,  on  the 20th, your
attorney is saying, "The Rabbi is no more."

                     [ be continued...]

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[Editor's note:  Fred Celeni  (pronounced suh-LAN-ee) worked as a
federal intelligence agent, he  says,  for  the  office  of  U.S.
Congressman  John  D. Dingell.  Celeni was interviewed for public
access television in Los  Angeles,  and  that interview was later
re-broadcast   on   Sherman   Skolnick's   television    program,
"Broadsides,"  in  Chicago.   Following  is  my  own  abbreviated
transcript  of Celeni's remarks.  (Possible spelling errors exist
and are not noted.)]


INTERVIEWER [continues]:  We  have another interesting situation.
In August of 1994, you got  a  call  from  your  old  friend  and
cohort, Nathan Arnold, Jr. What did he tell you?

FRED CELENI:  He said that he needed some advice.  I said, "Why?"
He  said  that a couple of months ago they had been involved in a
situation where Mark Fuhrman had gone  off.  I said, "What do you
mean?"  He said, "The same thing as McCullough."  And  I  started
laughing.   And I said, "I hope you didn't leave your fingerprint
on the door knob again."  (Because during this McCullough murder,
they left their fingerprint on  the  latch that shuts the lock on
the front door.)

INTERVIEWER: Tell us some details about that McCullough murder.

FRED CELENI:  The McCullough murder was an intelligence operation
for narcotics.  These guys  were  involved:   Mark  Fuhrman,  Tom
Lange,   and   Nathan   Arnold,  Jr.  During  the  course  of  an
interrogation of an old  woman  in  Santa  Monica,  it got out of
control.  And this old woman had her head cut off, with a  knife.
And  this knife was a very large Bowie knife.  And Mr. Arnold was
well-known for carrying this Bowie knife.
   If you look at the murder book  (a murder book is a file, with
all the pictures and information of a homicide) of the McCullough
murder, and take a look at the murder book of Nicole Simpson, you
can switch the photographs and it will be the same murder.

INTERVIEWER:  Did Arnold ever admit to you  that  he  had  killed
Nicole Simpson?

FRED CELENI: Yes, he did.

INTERVIEWER: What else did he tell you?

FRED  CELENI:   He  indicated  that  they  were  following  up on
information for a woman named Faye Resnick.  And Faye Resnick had
been arrested in Las Vegas about a year before, by the Metro Task
Force there  along  with  the  DEA.   Possession  of  cocaine and
possession of hashish.

INTERVIEWER: Was Faye Resnick a renowned sniffer?

FRED CELENI:  Faye Resnick  is  a  renowned  freak.   She  sniffs
cocaine;  she  sniffs  dirty  underwear.   She  sleeps with boys,
girls, dogs, farm animals.  Faye  Resnick is a very strange piece
of work. And that's a well-known fact.

            -+- Video of the Ron & Nicole Murder -+-

   And that evening, they had gone over to the house; there  were
four  people:   Tom  Lange, Mark Fuhrman, Nathan Arnold, Jr., and
another man, in a truck.
   Now  the  truck  that  they  used  was  a  Bronco  truck.  The
difference is that it didn't have a tire pit on  the  back.   But
what happened was, in the course of the investigation, Nicole got
out  of  hand.   Her  dress  was  pulled  down (she was wearing a
slip/nightie kind of dress), and  some  words got said.  She said
to Nathan Arnold, "You niggers like to see white  women's  tits."
He  slapped  her.   She  fell back, onto a couch.  And just as he
went for her, they got a call on the radio that said that someone
was coming in the front gate.  And Mr. Lange was waiting outside.
Mr. Fuhrman and Nathan Arnold were inside.
   They then proceeded out of the  house.  At this point, as they
come out the front door,  the  truck  has  a  dash-mounted  video
camera.   And  you  can see on the tape (it's in black-and-white;
there's no  sound),  you  see  her  start  down  the steps.  He's
standing behind her, holding his arm around her.

INTERVIEWER: Nathan Arnold's holding Nicole?

   And they go down the steps and disappear behind a  bush  or  a

INTERVIEWER: You've =seen= the video?

FRED CELENI: I've seen it on one occasion.
   What  happened  was, you see a scuffle.  You can see a bald(?)
individual because the  light  from  the  windows  is hitting his
head.  And he's fighting with somebody.  You can't tell who  that
somebody is...

INTERVIEWER: You've got to presume it's Ron Goldman.

FRED CELENI: You have to presume that.
   And  this  individual goes down.  You then see Mr. Arnold come
back and take her by the hair, and pull her and slice her.

INTERVIEWER: Is Goldman killed first?

FRED CELENI: Mr. Goldman died first.

INTERVIEWER: Who killed him?

FRED CELENI:  Well the estimation, if you watch the tape, is that
it was Tom Lange and Nathan Arnold.  My guess is that it would be
Nathan Arnold, and the reason I  say that is because of the knife

INTERVIEWER:  How can Nathan Arnold be holding Nicole and cutting
Ron's head off at the same time?

FRED CELENI:  What happened was, as they came down the stairs, he
put her into Fuhrman's arms.  And Fuhrman locked his arms  around
   You've  got  to see Nathan Arnold.  Nathan Arnold (and I don't
mean this in a racial way) is a gorilla.  He is 6 foot 6.  He has
shoulders out to here, arms that are  as big as your legs.  He is
a =big= son-of-a-gun.   And  if  he  hits  you,  one  swipe  with
=anything=, he's gonna bring you down.
   And  you've got to understand that all this action, the entire
videotape, lasts no more than a minute.

INTERVIEWER:  So when Ron Goldman is killed, what does Nicole do?
Is she screaming?

FRED CELENI: You can't see her; she's behind an obstruction.

INTERVIEWER: Did Nathan tell you that she was screaming?

FRED CELENI:  No, what  he  said  was  that  she was basically in
   And the FBI has that videotape.

INTERVIEWER:  You assume then that Nicole  Simpson  was  murdered
because she witnessed a murder?

FRED CELENI:  I don't think that they ever meant to kill anybody.
I think it was just something that got out of hand.
   If you talk to Nathan, Nathan tells this story.  You've got to
understand cop pride.  Assuming that Mr. Goldman is who's in that
video:   first of all, he got the best of them, it's as simple as
that.  Apparently what happened is,  as  he came through the gate
he had his back to wherever Lange was  standing.   And  as  Lange
came  forward,  according  to  what  I've  been  told  he did not
identify himself as a police  officer.  So Goldman thought it was
a mugging.

                -+- Frame-Up of O.J. Simpson -+-

INTERVIEWER:  Nathan Arnold, in August 1994, two months after the
murder, told you some more  details  about  a  frame-up  of  O.J.

FRED  CELENI:   What  happened  was,  they went to O.J. Simpson's
property.   Now  if  you  listen  to  the  limousine  driver,  he
describes a large,  black  male  coming  over  a fence.  Well the
large, black male is not O.J. Simpson; the large, black  male  is
Nathan  Arnold,  Jr.  That's who came over the fence.  But he was
inside that house.

INTERVIEWER: Nathan has admitted this to you?

   He was  inside  that  house  at  the  time  Simpson came home.
(Simpson was at a fast food restaurant.)  Simpson had nothing  to
do with that murder.

INTERVIEWER:  How did Simpson get in his house, then, without the
limo driver seeing him?

FRED  CELENI:   He came in the other gate.  There's two gates:  a
front gate and a  side  gate.   And  the  limo driver (if you pay
attention to the limo driver's story), he got back  in  the  car.
He wasn't paying attention to everything that went on.

INTERVIEWER:  Did Nathan Arnold explain at all the "thump, thump,
thump" heard by Kato Kaelin?

FRED  CELENI:   No,  we  never really got into that subject.  But
according to [an FBI source], here's  what he says.  He says that
Fuhrman was so out of control that, his hair was sticking out, he
was running around like a madman.  So I'm  gonna  guess  who  the
"thump,  thump,  thump" is.  But you have to know Mark Fuhrman in
order to understand the events of that night.

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